19 Mar
2025
19 Mar
'25
3:47 p.m.
OK I got a bit carried away (100% not procrastination I swear!)
Have attached a neat and tidy version of the diagram I shared in the
meeting with more context.
Lemme know what you think! Next step is then writing out how to use it I
think.
Kim
--
Dr Kim Foale (she/they <https://name.pn/kim-foale>)
*Working hours: Mon-Wed 10-5pm.*
Learn more about Geeks for Social Change Community <https://gfsc.community/>,
a collective building post-billionaire technology for a survivable world.
See work by Geeks for Social Change Studio <https://gfsc.studio/>, my
community technology consultancy.
If anything about this email is confusing or unclear please let me know. I
am happy to provide information in different ways such as clearer language,
over a phone call, with a voice note, or in plain text. Please don't feel
the need to ever apologise for responding to my emails at your own pace.
*Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.*
20 Mar
20 Mar
11:23 a.m.
I like it! A few points/questions/thoughts:
- How much is it intended to represent "what happens now" vs what a
community-centred tech ecosystem could be? (there is the "Existing ecosystem"
part on it, but not clear exactly what it refers to)
- if I understand it correctly, how we work in Karrot largely merges the Curator with the
designer/developer boxes - and I personally like this model, to have a long term
"in-house" team that understands and is responsible for the core infrastructure
(in our case product development), and can still have a network/suite of
agencies/studios/collectives that can be called on for other things
- accountability is a big topic to me, how to ensure accountability to the community,
rather than the funder/curator/others? it is present there in that the community steers
the research and design process, but wonder if there is space/interest for a stronger
sense of accountability?
- I was looking at the tech4good south west theory of change
(https://tech4goodsouthwest.org/theory-of-change), and in some way the CTP model could be
a theory of change in itself, at the network level, and I could see a space for gfsc to be
present in the CTP model itself too, as a guide for how to enact the model, and learn from
other CTPs - although that might get more and more complex diagram! so, perhaps this point
is more about "who is this diagram for, and what is the role of you/gfsc in the
model?"
Generally though, I think it could be extremely useful for a community/network organiser
who is trying to understand how to "deploy some tech" to support the community,
especially if for each part you can then go and find actual people/orgs/tools/resources in
alignment with the model.
I also wonder about some easy "low hanging fruit" steps for people trying to
enact it, like "how do I just get a website with a list of things/events/orgs in the
community?" as a first step... I met up with a local community co-ordinator in bath,
who had heard of Karrot, but I thought it was pointless just to try and use it without
understanding these needs, ... and they ended up with a normal kind of website from some
agency, but perhaps not rooted in this deeper model.
Cheers,
Nick
On Wednesday, 19 March 2025 at 15:47, Kim Foale <kim(a)gfsc.studio> wrote:
OK I got a bit carried away (100% not procrastination
I swear!)
Have attached a neat and tidy version of the diagram I shared in the meeting with more
context.
Lemme know what you think! Next step is then writing out how to use it I think.
Kim
--
Dr Kim Foale ([she/they](https://name.pn/kim-foale))
Working hours: Mon-Wed 10-5pm.
[Learn more about Geeks for Social Change Community](https://gfsc.community/), a
collective building post-billionaire technology for a survivable world.
[See work by Geeks for Social Change Studio](https://gfsc.studio/), my community
technology consultancy.
If anything about this email is confusing or unclear please let me know. I am happy to
provide information in different ways such as clearer language, over a phone call, with a
voice note, or in plain text. Please don't feel the need to ever apologise for
responding to my emails at your own pace.
Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.
2:08 p.m.
Great questions!! Will fold into the next version and also will help a lot
for the context / intro for it.
How much is it intended to represent "what
happens now" vs what a
community-centred tech ecosystem could be? (there is the
"Existing
ecosystem" part on it, but not clear exactly what it refers to)
The "existing ecosystem" i'll rename - this just refers to that fact that
everyone does in fact, live in a society. The explicit goal of the CTP
approach is to create reciprical relationships with this network of groups
you'rea already in. To contrast, a usual client/studio relationship doesn't
care about anyone else, or soley sees them as a site to extract from (i.e.
the wider ecosystem is ignored, exploited, or is competition). So its kinda
both - its a way of mapping out the context you already exist in, and then
it poses the question of what we want to do / who we want to invovle next.
if I understand it correctly, how we work in Karrot
largely merges the
Curator with the designer/developer boxes - and I personally like
this
model, to have a long term "in-house" team that understands and is
responsible for the core infrastructure (in our case product development),
and can still have a network/suite of agencies/studios/collectives that can
be called on for other things
Eee yeah this is a bit fiddly as I think its about hats. I think the
curator role is more about the community side of it detatched from any one
app. So in your case, there is a partnership of karrot admins that exists
irrespective of the software that you coordinate and arrange meetups and
trainings for for and lead (I'm guessing!), and there will be a bunch of
other software you use to do this right (gsuite / trello / notion?). I
think in PlaceCal's case we prob need to think about doing this map
per-instance as well as for the whole network. The development is therefore
commissioned not just becuase of what Karrot wants but because of all the
work you to do fold in client demands and this bit is just meant to
represent the karrot software (and running instance) itself. I'll have a
think if there's a way to represent this better - the affinity publisher
arrow tool leaves a lot to be desired, sob.
accountability is a big topic to me, how to ensure
accountability to the
community, rather than the funder/curator/others? it is
present there in
that the community steers the research and design process, but wonder if
there is space/interest for a stronger sense of accountability?
i think the whole point of this approach is to create reciprocal
accontability between tech and community, with the eventual goal being
shared ownership, actually!! that might be the cleanest def yet of what
"the point" is. i think the arrow labels need a bit of work.
I was looking at the tech4good south west theory of
change (
https://tech4goodsouthwest.org/theory-of-change), and in some way the CTP
model could be a theory of change in itself, at the network level, and I
could see a space for gfsc to be present in the CTP model itself too, as a
guide for how to enact the model, and learn from other CTPs - although that
might get more and more complex diagram! so, perhaps this point is more
about "who is this diagram for, and what is the role of you/gfsc in the
model?"
The "program model" section is the theory of change to be clear. i guess
the idea of this map is that if we all did it we would be better able to
see who we are all working with, what the commonalities and shared goals
are, etc.
Thanks for feedback - like i said will iterate this and try and get a blog
out next month about it, and try and make a worksheet version too. If
people have energy to do some worked examples for their project with me
that would be sweet!!
Kim
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 at 11:24, Nick Sellen <hello(a)nicksellen.co.uk> wrote:
I like it! A few points/questions/thoughts:
1. How much is it intended to represent "what happens now" vs what a
community-centred tech ecosystem could be? (there is the "Existing
ecosystem" part on it, but not clear exactly what it refers to)
2. if I understand it correctly, how we work in Karrot largely merges
the Curator with the designer/developer boxes - and I personally like this
model, to have a long term "in-house" team that understands and is
responsible for the core infrastructure (in our case product development),
and can still have a network/suite of agencies/studios/collectives that can
be called on for other things
3. accountability is a big topic to me, how to ensure accountability
to the community, rather than the funder/curator/others? it is present
there in that the community steers the research and design process, but
wonder if there is space/interest for a stronger sense of accountability?
4. I was looking at the tech4good south west theory of change (
https://tech4goodsouthwest.org/theory-of-change), and in some way the
CTP model could be a theory of change in itself, at the network level, and
I could see a space for gfsc to be present in the CTP model itself too, as
a guide for how to enact the model, and learn from other CTPs - although
that might get more and more complex diagram! so, perhaps this point is
more about "who is this diagram for, and what is the role of you/gfsc in
the model?"
Generally though, I think it could be extremely useful for a
community/network organiser who is trying to understand how to "deploy some
tech" to support the community, especially if for each part you can then go
and find actual people/orgs/tools/resources in alignment with the model.
I also wonder about some easy "low hanging fruit" steps for people trying
to enact it, like "how do I just get a website with a list of
things/events/orgs in the community?" as a first step... I met up with a
local community co-ordinator in bath, who had heard of Karrot, but I
thought it was pointless just to try and use it without understanding these
needs, ... and they ended up with a normal kind of website from some
agency, but perhaps not rooted in this deeper model.
Cheers,
Nick
On Wednesday, 19 March 2025 at 15:47, Kim Foale <kim(a)gfsc.studio> wrote:
OK I got a bit carried away (100% not procrastination I swear!)
Have attached a neat and tidy version of the diagram I shared in the
meeting with more context.
Lemme know what you think! Next step is then writing out how to use it I
think.
Kim
--
Dr Kim Foale (she/they <https://name.pn/kim-foale>)
*Working hours: Mon-Wed 10-5pm.*
Learn more about Geeks for Social Change Community
<https://gfsc.community/>, a collective building post-billionaire
technology for a survivable world.
See work by Geeks for Social Change Studio <https://gfsc.studio/>, my
community technology consultancy.
If anything about this email is confusing or unclear please let me know. I
am happy to provide information in different ways such as clearer language,
over a phone call, with a voice note, or in plain text. Please don't feel
the need to ever apologise for responding to my emails at your own pace.
*Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.*
--
Dr Kim Foale (she/they <https://name.pn/kim-foale>)
*Working hours: Mon-Wed 10-5pm.*
Learn more about Geeks for Social Change Community <https://gfsc.community/>,
a collective building post-billionaire technology for a survivable world.
See work by Geeks for Social Change Studio <https://gfsc.studio/>, my
community technology consultancy.
If anything about this email is confusing or unclear please let me know. I
am happy to provide information in different ways such as clearer language,
over a phone call, with a voice note, or in plain text. Please don't feel
the need to ever apologise for responding to my emails at your own pace.
*Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.*
25 Mar
25 Mar
11:13 a.m.
reciprical relationships with this network of groups
you'rea already in
+100 :)
We discussed this in our Karrot call today, and one input was relating it to Sociocracy
For All (SoFA) (one of our Karrot team is also a SoFA member) switching to a "network
model", and the role of creating "agreements" between organisations, with
some relation to the field of peace studies. I really like this potential of a culture of
creating lots of small agreements between orgs/projects that help us build this bigger
whole with clear intent and commitment.
Eee yeah this is a bit fiddly as I think its about
hats. I think the curator role is more about the community side of it detatched from any
one app. So in your case, there is a partnership of karrot admins that exists irrespective
of the software that you coordinate and arrange meetups and trainings for for and lead
(I'm guessing!), and there will be a bunch of other software you use to do this right
(gsuite / trello / notion?). I think in PlaceCal's case we prob need to think about
doing this map per-instance as well as for the whole network. The development is therefore
commissioned not just becuase of what Karrot wants but because of all the work you to do
fold in client demands and this bit is just meant to represent the karrot software (and
running instance) itself. I'll have a think if there's a way to represent this
better - the affinity publisher arrow tool leaves a lot to be desired, sob.
Yes, the "hats" framing helps me understand. I think our Karrot team plays a lot
of the curator role, but also along with some of the community organisers from the groups,
who are actually the ones initiating the local projects... but Karrot is also playing a
role there, we are not just responding to their need, but come with some initiative
ourselves - we're consciously embedded in our social/political perspectives,
especially when they are not the norm of projects around. So there is some relation to
wider movements/concepts (e.g. commons).
It's complicated by the fact that there is two levels here, the groups that use
Karrot, and the Karrot team itself, and those two levels aren't totally distinct.
Usually though the groups will have a few other digital tools they use that are nothing to
do with us, and us a Karrot team have some tools we use that the groups don't, and
then some overlap.
I think this is one of the good potentials of such a diagram/model - making it clearer how
the specific group/project relates to the more general software project, and seeing how to
make sure people understand those relations and their roles. I guess this is part of the
scope of working out what a "community tech partnership" entails. I wonder if
the nesting/levels aspect of it is useful to show? (so relating each local project with
the overall project, which might be 1 tech platform + n projects).
The "program model" section is the theory of
change to be clear.
I wasn't quite clear what I was writing, or thinking, but I sense there are two (or
more?) theory of changes happening at the same time - to give our karrot ecosystem as an
example: there is the theory of change inside the project that uses (e.g. distribute food
surpluses in a self-organised and fair way), the theory of change of karrot as a project
(software to support self-organised groups to better co-ordinate their activities), and
the theory of change of the CTP model (maybe what you wrote: "create reciprocal
accontability between tech and community, with the eventual goal being shared
ownership"). I often get confused between which level I'm working or thinking
at!
i guess the idea of this map is that if we all did it
we would be better able to see who we are all working with, what the commonalities and
shared goals are, etc.
I think that is a great goal, and Karrot can definately benefit from having that clearer..
helping to develop fruitful partnerships, etc... (given lots of people rebuild apps with
some similarity in function over and over).
Thanks for feedback - like i said will iterate this
and try and get a blog out next month about it, and try and make a worksheet version too.
If people have energy to do some worked examples for their project with me that would be
sweet!!
Yes, I would be up to do worked examples!
A bit more feedback from our Karrot team was that:
- it was initially overwhelming to look at - maybe there is a way to have it so you can
get the overview, then drill down - or just a radically simplified version for general
consumption?
- some of the terminology/language was unclear to people not already in some of the field,
e.g. the "As a...." framing - which I get, but maybe not everybody knows about
that, depends on the audience... perhaps there is a way to use "everyday"
language to describe the same thing? unless the increased precision of more specialist
terms is worth the clarity
Hope the feedback is useful! I've been interested to share it with people. Is it ok to
share it within our Karrot team group?
Cheers,
Nick
Kim
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 at 11:24, Nick Sellen <hello(a)nicksellen.co.uk> wrote:
I like it! A few points/questions/thoughts:
- How much is it intended to represent "what happens now" vs what a
community-centred tech ecosystem could be? (there is the "Existing ecosystem"
part on it, but not clear exactly what it refers to)
- if I understand it correctly, how we work in Karrot largely merges the Curator with the
designer/developer boxes - and I personally like this model, to have a long term
"in-house" team that understands and is responsible for the core infrastructure
(in our case product development), and can still have a network/suite of
agencies/studios/collectives that can be called on for other things
- accountability is a big topic to me, how to ensure accountability to the community,
rather than the funder/curator/others? it is present there in that the community steers
the research and design process, but wonder if there is space/interest for a stronger
sense of accountability?
- I was looking at the tech4good south west theory of change
(https://tech4goodsouthwest.org/theory-of-change), and in some way the CTP model could be
a theory of change in itself, at the network level, and I could see a space for gfsc to be
present in the CTP model itself too, as a guide for how to enact the model, and learn from
other CTPs - although that might get more and more complex diagram! so, perhaps this point
is more about "who is this diagram for, and what is the role of you/gfsc in the
model?"
Generally though, I think it could be extremely useful for a community/network organiser
who is trying to understand how to "deploy some tech" to support the community,
especially if for each part you can then go and find actual people/orgs/tools/resources in
alignment with the model.
I also wonder about some easy "low hanging fruit" steps for people trying to
enact it, like "how do I just get a website with a list of things/events/orgs in the
community?" as a first step... I met up with a local community co-ordinator in bath,
who had heard of Karrot, but I thought it was pointless just to try and use it without
understanding these needs, ... and they ended up with a normal kind of website from some
agency, but perhaps not rooted in this deeper model.
Cheers,
Nick
On Wednesday, 19 March 2025 at 15:47, Kim Foale <kim(a)gfsc.studio> wrote:
> OK I got a bit carried away (100% not procrastination I swear!)
>
> Have attached a neat and tidy version of the diagram I shared in the meeting with
more context.
>
> Lemme know what you think! Next step is then writing out how to use it I think.
>
> Kim
> --
>
> Dr Kim Foale ([she/they](https://name.pn/kim-foale))
>
> Working hours: Mon-Wed 10-5pm.
>
> [Learn more about Geeks for Social Change Community](https://gfsc.community/), a
collective building post-billionaire technology for a survivable world.
> [See work by Geeks for Social Change Studio](https://gfsc.studio/), my community
technology consultancy.
>
> If anything about this email is confusing or unclear please let me know. I am happy
to provide information in different ways such as clearer language, over a phone call, with
a voice note, or in plain text. Please don't feel the need to ever apologise for
responding to my emails at your own pace.
>
> Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.
--
Dr Kim Foale ([she/they](https://name.pn/kim-foale))
Working hours: Mon-Wed 10-5pm.
[Learn more about Geeks for Social Change Community](https://gfsc.community/), a
collective building post-billionaire technology for a survivable world.
[See work by Geeks for Social Change Studio](https://gfsc.studio/), my community
technology consultancy.
If anything about this email is confusing or unclear please let me know. I am happy to
provide information in different ways such as clearer language, over a phone call, with a
voice note, or in plain text. Please don't feel the need to ever apologise for
responding to my emails at your own pace.
Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.
10
days inactive
16
days old
tech-partners@lists.gfsc.studio
3 comments
2 participants
participants (2)
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Kim Foale -
Nick Sellen